解說(shuō)：一個(gè)醫(yī)院被誣蔑為法輪功學(xué)員集中營(yíng)。
?。◤埿瘢赫f(shuō)我們醫(yī)院是個(gè)集中營(yíng)，大概收容了幾千名法輪功人員，然后搞活體器官移植活體摘除
解說(shuō)：數(shù)位醫(yī)生被誣蔑曾經(jīng)摘取法輪功學(xué)員活體器官。
?。ㄓ谌海┪乙粋€(gè)普普通通的外科醫(yī)生,給我編造這個(gè)不符合實(shí)際的傳說(shuō),我也非常納悶。
解說(shuō)：太離奇太荒唐的謠言是如何編造的。
子墨：2006年的7月6日，兩名加拿大人大衛(wèi)喬高和大衛(wèi)麥塔斯，發(fā)布了一份獨(dú)立調(diào)查報(bào)告，指控中共摘取法輪功學(xué)員的器官。而后在2007年的1月31日,他們又發(fā)布了調(diào)查報(bào)告的修訂版，這份報(bào)告暴露了一個(gè)足以讓全世界都震驚的消息，那就是在中國(guó)有大量法輪功學(xué)員的器官被非法摘取，用來(lái)做器官移植手術(shù)，那么真相到底是什么？
?。ù笮l(wèi)麥塔斯）同期：我們將要著手寫第二版報(bào)告，與第一版中18項(xiàng)反正不同的是、這一份報(bào)告我們將有25或者26，甚至27項(xiàng)更多的方式去證明和反證。
解說(shuō)：大衛(wèi)麥塔斯，加拿大人權(quán)律師；大衛(wèi)喬高，曾任加拿大國(guó)會(huì)議員檢察官。2006年7月，兩位大衛(wèi)經(jīng)過(guò)兩個(gè)月的調(diào)查首次發(fā)表了一份所謂中國(guó)活摘法輪功學(xué)員器官的報(bào)告。2007年1月，又發(fā)布修訂版，稱他們獲取足夠證據(jù)，證明中國(guó)政府大量非法關(guān)押法輪功學(xué)員，并進(jìn)行活體器官摘取，以用做器官移植手術(shù)，醫(yī)院借此獲得暴利，報(bào)告被翻譯成九種文字，兩位大衛(wèi)在亞洲歐洲澳洲北美洲等15個(gè)國(guó)家及多個(gè)國(guó)際場(chǎng)合大肆宣揚(yáng)這份報(bào)告。對(duì)中國(guó)的器官移植體系大肆誣蔑，造成了極壞的影響。
?。ㄖ袊?guó)國(guó)家衛(wèi)生部新聞發(fā)言人）毛群安：
我們感覺(jué)到非常地氣憤，應(yīng)該說(shuō)這個(gè)事情它的影響，特別是在對(duì)境外公眾的影響就超出了器官移植這項(xiàng)技術(shù)本身，而是對(duì)整個(gè)我們國(guó)家對(duì)我們政府是一種蓄意的攻擊。
解說(shuō)：兩位大衛(wèi)在報(bào)告中稱，化名安妮的女士說(shuō)她的外科醫(yī)生丈夫在兩年的時(shí)間里親自從大約2000名被麻醉的法輪功犯人身上切除了眼角膜。并說(shuō)這些眼角膜捐獻(xiàn)者的其他器官被其他的外科醫(yī)生摘取，事后身體被全部焚毀，他們所指控的地點(diǎn)在中國(guó)沈陽(yáng)市蘇家屯醫(yī)院。
解說(shuō)：遼寧省沈陽(yáng)市蘇家屯區(qū)位于沈陽(yáng)之南，距離城區(qū)大約20分鐘車程，蘇家屯區(qū)共有4家醫(yī)院，是沈陽(yáng)市醫(yī)院比較集中的地方，某些海外媒體在屢次指控中都只是措辭模糊地用了蘇家屯醫(yī)院這樣一個(gè)概括的指代，法輪功相關(guān)網(wǎng)站關(guān)于蘇家屯醫(yī)院指控中所附的照片是在遼寧省腦血栓中西醫(yī)治療中心拍攝的，讓人感到詫異的是，備受指責(zé)的摘取法輪功學(xué)員活體器官的醫(yī)院，竟然是以治療血栓病為特色的?？漆t(yī)院。我們到來(lái)的這一天，醫(yī)院副院長(zhǎng)張玉琴在門診坐診。
子墨：海外的這份調(diào)查報(bào)告一直指責(zé)是你們的外科的醫(yī)生在從一些法輪功學(xué)員的身上進(jìn)行活體的器官的摘除，這個(gè)外科的規(guī)模在這有多大？
?。ㄟ|寧腦血栓中西醫(yī)結(jié)合治療中心副院長(zhǎng)）張玉琴：
外科，我們就是一個(gè)小的診室，另外還有一個(gè)處置室，這個(gè)處置室只能做一些簡(jiǎn)單的小的處置。比如說(shuō)哪碰破了，哪個(gè)地方出血了，我們簡(jiǎn)單的處理一下。
子墨：外科一共有多少名醫(yī)生？
張玉琴：10多名醫(yī)生
子墨：那像器官摘除的話，院里面雖然從來(lái)沒(méi)有進(jìn)行過(guò)按您所說(shuō)，但是具備這樣的能力嗎？
張玉琴：我們沒(méi)有這個(gè)能力進(jìn)行器官摘除的手術(shù)，沒(méi)有這個(gè)能力，也沒(méi)有這個(gè)設(shè)備。
解說(shuō)：蘇家屯整個(gè)醫(yī)院只有300張床位，醫(yī)院的最大容納量為600余人。
張旭是蘇家屯醫(yī)院新聞發(fā)言人，他認(rèn)為流傳在海外的所謂蘇家屯法輪功集中營(yíng)事件完全是無(wú)稽之談。
?。ㄟ|寧腦血栓中西醫(yī)結(jié)合治療中心新聞發(fā)言人）張旭：
每一條都是謊言編造的。我們醫(yī)院在建院，1988年建院之前是一個(gè)農(nóng)民居住的一個(gè)菜地，種菜的這地方，是從來(lái)都是有居民區(qū)的。那么建成醫(yī)院到現(xiàn)在，我們一直生活在這里的，而且這所醫(yī)院每天要接待國(guó)內(nèi)外大量的患者，它就在居民區(qū)內(nèi)，前后左右都是交通要道，如果他說(shuō)的這種情況存在的話，不用他來(lái)去報(bào)道了，馬上全國(guó)最起碼來(lái)說(shuō)我們就能知道。不用他來(lái)去揭露了，所以這個(gè)事情根本就是無(wú)稽之談。
解說(shuō)：這是蘇家屯醫(yī)院住院樓。在兩位大衛(wèi)的報(bào)告推出之前，法輪大法明慧網(wǎng)就指證說(shuō)，這所醫(yī)院藏匿了6000多名法輪功學(xué)員，其中2000多人被進(jìn)行活體器官摘取后焚燒。網(wǎng)站還登出焚尸爐照片，但這幅照片中所謂的焚尸爐事實(shí)上是這家醫(yī)院的鍋爐房。
子墨：您在這鍋爐房工作多長(zhǎng)時(shí)間了？
（鍋爐房工作人員）：我是91年來(lái)的，現(xiàn)在工作已經(jīng)16年了。
子墨：每天都負(fù)責(zé)一些什么樣的工作呢？
“我們每天，這是兩噸鍋爐，我們這主要是生產(chǎn)中西醫(yī)制劑漿洗房洗洗衣服還有食堂供氣，還有供應(yīng)室消毒?！?br>
子墨：在2003年前后，那段時(shí)間您感覺(jué)這個(gè)鍋爐房有沒(méi)有一些異常？
“沒(méi)有什么太異常的，”
子墨：比如說(shuō)有沒(méi)有焚燒過(guò)一些其他的東西？
鍋爐房工作人員：那是沒(méi)有過(guò)的。
解說(shuō)：這是一間普通的鍋爐房。鍋爐房前后都是窗戶，旁邊小區(qū)距離鍋爐房不過(guò)十一二米遠(yuǎn)，居民站在家中就可以透過(guò)窗戶清楚地看到鍋爐房的活動(dòng)。除了一大一小兩扇門，鍋爐房也沒(méi)有和外界連接的通道。
張旭：他網(wǎng)上登的我們那個(gè)鍋爐房的照片我不知道您注意沒(méi)注意，他的這個(gè)角度拍攝，實(shí)際上是在居民區(qū)里拍攝，在鍋爐房的上面就是我們的居民樓，老百姓每天晾衣服生活都在這里頭，往下一瞅，這個(gè)醫(yī)院發(fā)生的任何事情都能看到。就鍋爐房這個(gè)位置看得一清二楚，我不知道這個(gè)情況怎么保密。
解說(shuō)：按照常識(shí)，如果蘇家屯醫(yī)院確實(shí)曾經(jīng)藏匿過(guò)6000多名法輪功學(xué)員，那么這些人的吃穿如何解決。
子墨：所以我們想了解一下，在那段時(shí)間，您有沒(méi)有接到過(guò)一些任務(wù)，要為這樣一個(gè)龐大的人群來(lái)提供更多的后勤供應(yīng)？
?。ㄟ|寧腦血栓中西醫(yī)結(jié)合治療中心總務(wù)科科長(zhǎng)）戚其德：
因?yàn)槲以谶@個(gè)醫(yī)院，從建院到現(xiàn)在就在醫(yī)院，這個(gè)我們正常的供應(yīng)，就是水的供應(yīng)電的供應(yīng)氣的供應(yīng)氧氣的供應(yīng)和洗衣服，吃飯的供應(yīng)，就是這個(gè)其他的沒(méi)有。
子墨：假設(shè)有6000人在你們醫(yī)院內(nèi)部的話，那后勤供應(yīng)方面，需要做什么樣的準(zhǔn)備，大概有多少人要為他們服務(wù)，資金投入方面需要多少？
戚其德：假如說(shuō)要有的話，最起碼得有棲息的地方，得有呆的地方?，F(xiàn)在這呆的地方，我們這個(gè)院子就容納不了。第二個(gè)它這有6000人，最起碼也得有五六千人為他們服務(wù)，我們沒(méi)有那么多人，我們一共才600人，哪有那么多人？
解說(shuō)：蘇家屯醫(yī)院藏匿法輪功學(xué)員的謠言，在大紀(jì)元網(wǎng)站出現(xiàn)之后，美國(guó)領(lǐng)事館工作人員以患者身份，到蘇家屯醫(yī)院咨詢器官移植手術(shù)問(wèn)題，進(jìn)行暗訪調(diào)查沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)問(wèn)題。
2006年3月21日，領(lǐng)事館又派駐沈陽(yáng)領(lǐng)事柯道雷先生進(jìn)行訪問(wèn)調(diào)查，他們一行五人對(duì)蘇家屯醫(yī)院的病房行政辦公樓醫(yī)療設(shè)備甚至堆放雜物的小倉(cāng)庫(kù)都進(jìn)行了詳細(xì)檢查，也沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)任何問(wèn)題。
子墨：美國(guó)領(lǐng)事館的領(lǐng)事是在這里調(diào)查了多長(zhǎng)的時(shí)間？
張旭：他是分兩次來(lái)調(diào)查的，我講時(shí)間嘛，第一次是法輪功炒作，集中炒作我們是3月18號(hào)，我記憶中是3月18號(hào)。那么3月22號(hào)，沈陽(yáng)領(lǐng)事館的柯道雷先生，就以這個(gè)到醫(yī)院訪問(wèn)這么一個(gè)名義來(lái)我們醫(yī)院參觀，當(dāng)時(shí)是我接待的，我陪同他在我們醫(yī)院大致轉(zhuǎn)了轉(zhuǎn)。大約參觀了能有一個(gè)多小時(shí)，這是第一次。那么第二次，我們新聞發(fā)布會(huì)以后，美國(guó)的這個(gè)領(lǐng)事館通過(guò)外交部想到我們醫(yī)院來(lái)考察，那么這一次考察時(shí)間有五個(gè)小時(shí)，應(yīng)該說(shuō)是一次比較徹底的訪問(wèn)，我們向他詳細(xì)地介紹了醫(yī)院各個(gè)地方的設(shè)施以及一些用途，而且還向他介紹了我們醫(yī)院所開(kāi)展的醫(yī)療項(xiàng)目的詳細(xì)情況，包括手術(shù)的情況，包括一些原始記錄。
子墨：他在調(diào)查過(guò)程當(dāng)中沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)任何異常嗎？
張旭：應(yīng)該說(shuō)沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)任何異常。
解說(shuō)：2006年4月12日，美聯(lián)社發(fā)布消息，美國(guó)駐華大使館女發(fā)言人稱，根據(jù)他們目前獲得的信息，這個(gè)地方在功能上只是一家醫(yī)院。
解說(shuō)：2006年3月31日大紀(jì)元網(wǎng)站上一個(gè)署名，沈陽(yáng)軍區(qū)老軍醫(yī)的人說(shuō)，蘇家屯醫(yī)院2005年初曾經(jīng)關(guān)押超過(guò)一萬(wàn)人，2006年日常的關(guān)押人數(shù)只保持在600至750人，很多已經(jīng)被轉(zhuǎn)移至其他集中營(yíng)，還具體的描述用的是專列和鐵路貨車，轉(zhuǎn)移5000人只需一天時(shí)間。蘇家屯醫(yī)院緊鄰一個(gè)十字路口，門前的這條公路因?yàn)橥ㄏ蛏蚬咚俾罚瑏?lái)往車輛絡(luò)繹不絕，該醫(yī)院緊鄰雪松路和桂花街，周邊有銀行社區(qū)學(xué)校體育場(chǎng)，在這個(gè)范圍內(nèi)沒(méi)有大片空地，要實(shí)現(xiàn)大規(guī)模的人口轉(zhuǎn)移不可能悄無(wú)聲息，為此我們也決定向附近的居民來(lái)印證一下。
子墨：我們就是想詢問(wèn)一下這家醫(yī)院你有沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)他們有沒(méi)有一些大批的陌生人員的往來(lái)沒(méi)有？
“沒(méi)有”
子墨：從來(lái)沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)過(guò)？
“沒(méi)有根本就沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)過(guò)，這家醫(yī)院比較正規(guī)。”
子墨：2002年2003年的時(shí)候，你也在這附近？
“咱們都在這兒干呢，都已經(jīng)有七八年了”
子墨：有沒(méi)有看到過(guò)幾千人大批量的進(jìn)進(jìn)出出？
“沒(méi)有，那絕對(duì)沒(méi)有！”
病人家屬：俺家老公公 老婆婆去年和今年凈在這里住院了，給俺們說(shuō)的都直害怕，我說(shuō)這不不可能的事兒啊，就是說(shuō)腦血栓，又什么買器官，又說(shuō)有個(gè)地下室，那是不可能的，一聽(tīng)就是謊言。
子墨：但是這份報(bào)告指出說(shuō)，消息被泄露之后是在一夜之間轉(zhuǎn)移了所有的病人，而且是原來(lái)的這個(gè)房間也都消失了。
張旭：你想他說(shuō)的6000名法輪功人員，包括他所說(shuō)的，什么焚尸爐也好，還是其他設(shè)施也好，一夜之間就能轉(zhuǎn)移得了，這個(gè)讓人很難相信，這些人員往哪轉(zhuǎn)移？更重要的是，我剛才跟您講，這個(gè)周邊地區(qū)，是老百姓生活居住的密集區(qū)，它不可能無(wú)聲無(wú)息。這么大的事情怎么可能無(wú)聲無(wú)息就消失掉了呢？所以說(shuō)我說(shuō)，這是純屬造謠。任何一個(gè)頭腦理智的、有一定識(shí)別能力的、有理解能力的正常思維的人，到這所醫(yī)院來(lái)參觀看一下，實(shí)地考察一下，就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)一切都是謊言。
解說(shuō)：2007年6月1日大紀(jì)元網(wǎng)站又發(fā)布謠言，稱一位正在申請(qǐng)韓國(guó)國(guó)籍的金先生向他們透露，說(shuō)蘇家屯醫(yī)院外科醫(yī)生于海山就專門從事法輪功學(xué)員的器官摘取手術(shù)。我們?cè)谔K家屯醫(yī)院找到了唯一一位于姓醫(yī)生，他叫于三江。于醫(yī)生認(rèn)為，大紀(jì)元的造謠和他2007年5月在醫(yī)院值班時(shí)接到的一個(gè)咨詢電話有關(guān)。
子墨：今年6月1號(hào)，海外又有一些網(wǎng)站發(fā)布了關(guān)于蘇家屯醫(yī)院的消息，指責(zé)一位姓于的外科醫(yī)生在退休之后，被反聘到這里，專門從事摘除活體器官的這樣的手術(shù)，而且是從法輪功學(xué)員的身上。我想這位于姓的外科醫(yī)生指的可能就是您？
?。ㄟ|寧腦血栓中西醫(yī)結(jié)合治療中心腫瘤外科醫(yī)生）于三江：
我在5月中旬接到了一個(gè)外線電話，她首先這么說(shuō)，她說(shuō)我找一名叫于海山的大夫，他從沈陽(yáng)退休過(guò)來(lái)的，手術(shù)做得不錯(cuò)。我說(shuō)你說(shuō)錯(cuò)了，我不叫于海山，我說(shuō)我叫于三江，我從遼寧省總醫(yī)院退休過(guò)來(lái)的。她說(shuō)我向你咨詢一個(gè)事，她說(shuō)聽(tīng)說(shuō)你能做腎移植嘛。我說(shuō)這是不對(duì)的，和我的專業(yè)不相符合的。
解說(shuō)：于三江是腫瘤外科醫(yī)生，并不具備做腎移植手術(shù)的專業(yè)技能，但是這個(gè)電話卻始終在糾纏腎移植的問(wèn)題。
子墨：接到這個(gè)電話之后您感覺(jué)到奇怪嗎？
于三江：我感到非常奇怪，這個(gè)女的，她用探詢我的口吻，這個(gè)女的她是一個(gè)南方口音，我估計(jì)她的年齡在40歲到50歲之間。
子墨：在您告訴她您不能夠做腎移植的手術(shù)之后，她怎么說(shuō)？
于三江：她還是在糾纏，她說(shuō)聽(tīng)說(shuō)你能做，還反復(fù)強(qiáng)調(diào)尿毒癥怎么治療，腎移植的事情，我把電話撂了，我不接待她了。
子墨：您從來(lái)沒(méi)有做過(guò)器官移植的手術(shù)嗎？
于三江：我從來(lái)沒(méi)有做。搞腫瘤的沒(méi)有做器官移植的，特別是搞大腸胃，沒(méi)有做器官移植的。而且在我們整個(gè)蘇家屯地區(qū)據(jù)我所知道，這幾所醫(yī)院當(dāng)中沒(méi)有一家能夠做腎移植的。
解說(shuō)：于醫(yī)生不懂得做腎移植手術(shù)，那個(gè)在大紀(jì)元網(wǎng)站上自稱是他朋友的金先生到底是誰(shuí)呢？
子墨：您有沒(méi)有一位姓金的朝鮮族的朋友？
于三江：我沒(méi)有。
子墨：因?yàn)楹Ｍ獾倪@份報(bào)道當(dāng)中說(shuō)是一位金姓的朝鮮族男子在韓國(guó)披露的，他是您的朋友，您在蘇家屯醫(yī)院就專門從事器官摘除的手術(shù)。
于三江：我沒(méi)有。因?yàn)槲一氐郊亦l(xiāng)這五年多，因?yàn)槲沂菨h族漢族人接觸得比較多。
解說(shuō)：整份報(bào)告中只有唯一的一份人證，就是自稱蘇家屯醫(yī)院一位外科醫(yī)生妻子的所謂安妮女士。那么這個(gè)安妮女士究竟是什么人呢？
子墨：除了對(duì)地點(diǎn)的指證之外，報(bào)告當(dāng)中還提供了一個(gè)人證，也就是一位名字叫做安妮的女士。她說(shuō)她的前夫是這里的外科醫(yī)生，她的前夫曾經(jīng)親口對(duì)她說(shuō)過(guò)，在兩年的時(shí)間之內(nèi)，為2000名法輪功的學(xué)員摘除過(guò)眼角膜，這給她的家庭帶來(lái)了痛苦。
張旭：關(guān)于這個(gè)所謂安妮這個(gè)證人，第一，我們醫(yī)院壓根就沒(méi)有這個(gè)人，根本就沒(méi)有這個(gè)人。第二，從她自己的說(shuō)法來(lái)說(shuō)已經(jīng)前后有很大的矛盾。她說(shuō)這個(gè)人是腦外科醫(yī)生，竟然去摘除眼角膜，稍微懂點(diǎn)醫(yī)學(xué)常識(shí)的人都會(huì)了解腦外科醫(yī)生去摘眼角膜手術(shù)，根本就是，這個(gè)專業(yè)上就是個(gè)錯(cuò)誤的。再有一個(gè)，她原來(lái)她說(shuō)我自己是這所醫(yī)院的一個(gè)員工，我們壓根都沒(méi)有這樣一個(gè)人。
子墨：安妮的話就一點(diǎn)可信之處都沒(méi)有嗎？
張旭：我可以負(fù)責(zé)任地告訴你，真誠(chéng)地告訴你，沒(méi)有一句實(shí)在的話，沒(méi)有一句是真話。
解說(shuō)：在網(wǎng)站關(guān)于蘇家屯醫(yī)院藏匿法輪功學(xué)員活體摘除器官并焚尸滅跡的謠言傳出之后，2006年3月31日，日本NHK 大公報(bào)等4家媒體前往蘇家屯醫(yī)院進(jìn)行實(shí)地調(diào)查和采訪。4月12日，蘇家屯醫(yī)院新聞發(fā)言人又在北京舉行了新聞發(fā)布會(huì)，華盛頓郵報(bào)法新社等12家媒體參加。
張旭：這種采訪，我們都公開(kāi)地事無(wú)巨細(xì)暴露無(wú)遺，我們大膽公開(kāi)真誠(chéng)地向他們展示我們這所醫(yī)院，因?yàn)槲覀儧](méi)有任何心虛的事，可以隨便看。
子墨：您認(rèn)為的負(fù)責(zé)的報(bào)道當(dāng)中有海外媒體嗎？
張旭：應(yīng)該說(shuō)我們上次新聞發(fā)布會(huì)上這13家這個(gè)包括路透社，華盛頓郵報(bào)吧應(yīng)該是吧，都把我們新聞發(fā)布會(huì)的內(nèi)容實(shí)事求是地做了報(bào)道。這也是去年自從新聞發(fā)布會(huì)以來(lái)，法輪功宣傳我們醫(yī)院越來(lái)越少幾乎到?jīng)]有也是這么一個(gè)因素。因?yàn)檎嫦啻蟀滓院缶蜎](méi)有人再信謊言也就沒(méi)有市場(chǎng)了。
毛群安：海外媒體呢在談到這個(gè)報(bào)告的時(shí)候呢，記者本身他們認(rèn)為這是不可信的。他們關(guān)注中國(guó)的器官移植這項(xiàng)技術(shù)的開(kāi)展，但是他們認(rèn)為法輪功的這個(gè)謊言不可信。為什么呢？因?yàn)樘K家屯的事件讓他們感覺(jué)到，法輪功組織它是出于一種政治的目的來(lái)利用了醫(yī)學(xué)技術(shù)上的這樣一個(gè)發(fā)展編造的確這樣一個(gè)謊言。
解說(shuō)：兩位大衛(wèi)撰寫的報(bào)告大量引用的所謂證據(jù)來(lái)自他們雇人做的電話采訪，據(jù)說(shuō)這份報(bào)告以雇人打電話的方式調(diào)查了全國(guó)上百家醫(yī)院，報(bào)告特別對(duì)廣西民族醫(yī)院盧醫(yī)生的電話調(diào)查記錄非常詳盡。報(bào)告說(shuō)這位醫(yī)生承認(rèn)他早些時(shí)候曾到監(jiān)獄挑選三十多歲的健康法輪功人員來(lái)提供器官，于是我們趕赴廣西。
我們拿著報(bào)告來(lái)到廣西民族醫(yī)院。醫(yī)院位于南寧市的繁華區(qū)，屬三級(jí)甲等綜合性醫(yī)院，但并不具備器官移植器官摘取手術(shù)的資質(zhì)，在醫(yī)院泌尿科診室我們找到了盧醫(yī)生，他是一名主治醫(yī)師。
?。◤V西民族醫(yī)院泌尿科醫(yī)生）盧國(guó)平：２００６年5月份的時(shí)候，在值班的時(shí)候，接到一個(gè)，大概50歲左右的女性的操北方口音的，她電話里面說(shuō)她家里有一個(gè)親戚患尿毒癥非常急，想盡早做一些腎移植手術(shù)，問(wèn)我能不能在我們醫(yī)院進(jìn)行手術(shù)，我明確告訴她我們醫(yī)院沒(méi)辦法進(jìn)行這種手術(shù)，我建議她到廣州的器官移植中心去那邊去聯(lián)系一下。
解說(shuō)：盧國(guó)平1999年進(jìn)入廣西民族醫(yī)院工作，2004年升為主治醫(yī)師，2005年到廣州某上級(jí)醫(yī)院進(jìn)修。
盧國(guó)平：她問(wèn)我那邊是不是用的是法輪功的那些器官，我告訴她我說(shuō)我并沒(méi)有參與這方面的手術(shù)，不知道他們器官是怎么來(lái)的，這方面我沒(méi)辦法回答她。她又問(wèn)我是不是這些這個(gè)器官是不是到什么監(jiān)獄里面去拿或者是什么，我明確告訴她說(shuō)沒(méi)那么回事。
解說(shuō)：報(bào)告中還繪聲繪色地說(shuō)盧國(guó)平醫(yī)生曾建議打電話的人到廣州去拿器官，那邊器官很容易拿，還說(shuō)他曾到監(jiān)獄挑選健康法輪功學(xué)員供體，盧國(guó)平對(duì)于這些電話錄音記錄表示吃驚。
盧國(guó)平：這個(gè)錄音的內(nèi)容和當(dāng)時(shí)不相符，好多東西已經(jīng)被篡改過(guò)了。最明顯的兩個(gè)問(wèn)題，就是第一個(gè)，他在這個(gè)報(bào)告里面說(shuō)，你們以前用的法輪功供體是從監(jiān)獄里面還是從看守所里面拿的，它里面說(shuō)我的回答是從監(jiān)獄里面拿的，但是當(dāng)時(shí)我的回答并不是這樣的，我的回答是我們醫(yī)院沒(méi)有這種資質(zhì)，我本人也沒(méi)有這種資質(zhì)，所以不可能拿任何器官。還有第二個(gè)問(wèn)題是他說(shuō)那你們都要到監(jiān)獄里面自己去挑選嗎？他當(dāng)時(shí)說(shuō)我的回答是對(duì)，肯定說(shuō)要去挑選的，這個(gè)問(wèn)題當(dāng)初根本都沒(méi)有問(wèn)到，沒(méi)有那回事。
解說(shuō)：報(bào)告稱他們的電話采訪涉及上百家醫(yī)院，其中調(diào)查員M就給八十多家醫(yī)院打過(guò)電話，調(diào)查員N給近四十家醫(yī)院打過(guò)電話。我們?cè)谔K家屯和在廣西對(duì)于當(dāng)事人的采訪都證明這樣的電話記錄不具備真實(shí)性。
解說(shuō)：兩位大衛(wèi)的調(diào)查報(bào)告以大量錯(cuò)誤百出的所謂電話采訪為依據(jù)得出一個(gè)荒唐的推論，這個(gè)推論認(rèn)為1999年以后中國(guó)的器官移植數(shù)量突然增長(zhǎng)，而中國(guó)在1999年又恰恰發(fā)生了法輪功事件，因此增加的器官移植手術(shù)供體必然來(lái)自于法輪功學(xué)員，這一推論不僅僅在邏輯上是錯(cuò)誤的，而且用以推論的數(shù)字基礎(chǔ)也是編造的309醫(yī)院石炳毅教授的話。
309醫(yī)院又稱解放軍總醫(yī)院第二附屬醫(yī)院，中國(guó)人民解放軍全軍器官移植中心就設(shè)在這里，石炳毅是這里的主任，也兼任中華醫(yī)學(xué)會(huì)器官移植分會(huì)常務(wù)副主任，在中國(guó)器官移植領(lǐng)域是權(quán)威專家。
子墨：最近我們是看到了一份由加拿大的兩個(gè)獨(dú)立調(diào)查員所做的報(bào)告，當(dāng)中呢引述了您的話，說(shuō)中國(guó)截止到2005年一共進(jìn)行過(guò)九萬(wàn)宗的器官移植手術(shù)，那其中從2000年到2005年呢，也就是說(shuō)所謂的他們說(shuō)的法輪功在受迫害之后，曾經(jīng)是有六萬(wàn)宗的手術(shù)，也就是說(shuō)數(shù)量有一個(gè)大幅的增長(zhǎng)。不知道您是在一種什么樣的情況下是不是曾經(jīng)說(shuō)過(guò)這樣的話？
?。ㄖ腥A醫(yī)學(xué)會(huì)器官移植分會(huì)常務(wù)副主任）石炳毅：我沒(méi)有說(shuō)過(guò)這樣的話。為什么？因?yàn)槲翌^腦里就沒(méi)有這樣的數(shù)字，我沒(méi)有過(guò)非常詳細(xì)的調(diào)查，哪一個(gè)時(shí)間點(diǎn)是多少例，我沒(méi)有這樣的數(shù)字，所以我也不可能說(shuō)。
子墨：雖然您沒(méi)有透露過(guò)具體的數(shù)字，但是這份報(bào)告所指出的這些數(shù)字它們屬實(shí)嗎？
石炳毅：我覺(jué)得沒(méi)有屬實(shí)的地方。很多都是我看這上寫的都打電話問(wèn)問(wèn)這個(gè)醫(yī)院是多少那個(gè)醫(yī)院是多少，以患者家屬的名義去調(diào)查這件事情。
子墨：那您自己在看過(guò)了這一份獨(dú)立調(diào)查報(bào)告當(dāng)中，有沒(méi)有對(duì)報(bào)告當(dāng)中摘用的您說(shuō)的這些數(shù)字進(jìn)行過(guò)澄清呢？
石炳毅：有過(guò)的，因?yàn)槲沂擒娙?，所以我只能通過(guò)合法的渠道，我寫出抗議，通過(guò)衛(wèi)生行政管理部門總后勤部衛(wèi)生部，轉(zhuǎn)交給國(guó)家衛(wèi)生部，我說(shuō)我沒(méi)有說(shuō)過(guò)這樣的話。
子墨：那有沒(méi)有對(duì)一些海外的媒體進(jìn)行過(guò)澄清？
石炳毅：有過(guò)的。有一次BBC電話采訪了我，我就告訴他我沒(méi)說(shuō)過(guò)這些話。
解說(shuō)：石炳毅表示上個(gè)世紀(jì)末以來(lái)，中國(guó)器官移植確實(shí)出現(xiàn)了數(shù)量的增長(zhǎng)，但這與法輪功事件無(wú)關(guān)。
子墨：我們?cè)趺蠢斫庹f(shuō)中國(guó)的器官移植手術(shù)在這些年會(huì)出現(xiàn)這么大幅的增長(zhǎng)呢？
石炳毅：這個(gè)增長(zhǎng)是和一個(gè)情況有直接關(guān)系的，不是因?yàn)槲覀儸F(xiàn)在供體增加了，而是因?yàn)槲覀兊挠心芰Φ尼t(yī)生增加了，醫(yī)學(xué)科學(xué)進(jìn)步了。最近這幾年從美國(guó)的匹茲堡，從英國(guó)回來(lái)的學(xué)者訪問(wèn)學(xué)者回來(lái)以后，回國(guó)內(nèi)開(kāi)展器官移植工作，從器官移植不管從臨床還是科研的方面都大大進(jìn)步了，實(shí)際上其他國(guó)家也是這樣，也是這幾年發(fā)展比較快，整個(gè)器官移植從國(guó)際上，第一例器官移植，臨床器官移植開(kāi)始到現(xiàn)在也才只有半個(gè)世紀(jì)時(shí)間。
子墨：那么供體的問(wèn)題在出現(xiàn)了大幅的手術(shù)數(shù)量增長(zhǎng)的情況下是怎么解決的？
石炳毅：供體短缺的問(wèn)題應(yīng)該是沒(méi)法解決的，這個(gè)缺口是永遠(yuǎn)存在的。不管是我們中國(guó)這樣其他國(guó)家也是這樣。
子墨：這份報(bào)告當(dāng)中還提到其他的一些數(shù)字，比如說(shuō)在中國(guó)一些醫(yī)院的網(wǎng)站上打出了相關(guān)的廣告說(shuō)在中國(guó)等待供體可能只需要兩個(gè)星期的時(shí)間，但是在其他的一些國(guó)家可能等待的時(shí)間，通常要達(dá)到一年之久，這種差異怎么樣來(lái)解釋？
石炳毅：那我可以告訴你，在我們醫(yī)院我們現(xiàn)在有等四年的等三年的，等一年以上的在我們醫(yī)院絕對(duì)會(huì)超過(guò)200人。
解說(shuō)：在蘇家屯被海外媒體指控為法輪功集中營(yíng)后，中國(guó)公安部門衛(wèi)生部門等多級(jí)機(jī)構(gòu)都分別對(duì)醫(yī)院進(jìn)行突擊檢查，沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)問(wèn)題。隨后對(duì)外召開(kāi)新聞發(fā)布會(huì)澄清事實(shí)兩位大衛(wèi)的報(bào)告修訂版出臺(tái)之后，衛(wèi)生部再次以秘密和公開(kāi)的方式對(duì)所有線索進(jìn)行調(diào)查。
子墨：我們有沒(méi)有任何的證據(jù)能夠證明在中國(guó)從來(lái)沒(méi)有發(fā)生過(guò)針對(duì)法輪功學(xué)員的活體器官移植的事件？
毛群安：你說(shuō)到這個(gè)事我想起來(lái)在我們防控禽流感疫情的時(shí)候法輪功組織在境外也造了這么一個(gè)謠，本來(lái)我們?cè)谶|寧發(fā)現(xiàn)有一例病人感染了禽流感，那么他造謠說(shuō)有數(shù)十人，有名有姓的人感染禽流感并且死亡，那我們進(jìn)行公安部門協(xié)助進(jìn)行調(diào)查，這些人要么不存在這個(gè)人，要么這個(gè)人還健康的生存著，但是呢被法輪功組織列為已經(jīng)死于禽流感的名單上，我們也看到這個(gè)報(bào)道我們也在想如果說(shuō)法輪功的這個(gè)組織，他能夠提供出非常詳細(xì)的名單，就像我剛才舉的防控禽流感過(guò)程中這樣的事件，那么我們可以及時(shí)地給他揭露，給他以證實(shí)。那么現(xiàn)在這個(gè)報(bào)告中講到有這么大規(guī)模的活體器官移植這么一個(gè)情況，但是整個(gè)報(bào)告里面就沒(méi)有能夠給我們一個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)來(lái)證實(shí)，說(shuō)這個(gè)人比如說(shuō)他遇到這樣的事情，那么我們可以證實(shí)他或者說(shuō)他在這個(gè)報(bào)告的同時(shí)能夠讓這個(gè)人向世人證實(shí)有這樣的情況，但很遺憾，在整個(gè)報(bào)告里面我們找不到這樣的線索。
子墨：在對(duì)器官移植進(jìn)行規(guī)范和管理的過(guò)程中，您認(rèn)為現(xiàn)在中國(guó)除了醫(yī)療技術(shù)本身的提升之外，還有哪些地方是最急需改善的？
毛群安：器官移植呢這是項(xiàng)新的醫(yī)療技術(shù)，應(yīng)該說(shuō)國(guó)際國(guó)內(nèi)都非常關(guān)注。就這個(gè)問(wèn)題呢，我也接受過(guò)許多記者的采訪。境外的媒體和一些記者呢，也對(duì)我們國(guó)家要進(jìn)一步規(guī)范我們國(guó)家的器官移植這項(xiàng)技術(shù)呢也善意地提出了意見(jiàn)和建議，我們認(rèn)為這是非常客觀。因?yàn)樵谶@項(xiàng)技術(shù)開(kāi)展過(guò)程中我們有很多的醫(yī)療機(jī)構(gòu)醫(yī)務(wù)人員參與了，那么它又是項(xiàng)新的技術(shù)，大家急于開(kāi)展那么我們要規(guī)范，這二者之間本身是不矛盾，但是呢法輪功組織呢，利用這么一個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)編造了這樣一個(gè)謊言我認(rèn)為隨著境外的公眾對(duì)我們國(guó)家醫(yī)學(xué)的發(fā)展 社會(huì)發(fā)展的了解，這個(gè)謊言必將不攻自破。
字幕：2006年7月1日，《人體器官移植技術(shù)臨床應(yīng)用管理暫行規(guī)定》開(kāi)始實(shí)施2007年5月1日?qǐng)?bào)表《人體器官移植條例》開(kāi)始實(shí)施
解說(shuō)：通觀報(bào)告全文，兩位大衛(wèi)所使用的證據(jù)不外乎三類：一是所謂的證人證言如安妮的話石炳毅的話以及被篡改的電話錄音；第二類為從網(wǎng)上下載的資料；第三類就是一些包含著可能據(jù)說(shuō)應(yīng)該如果等詞匯的含混的邏輯推理，如兩位調(diào)查員會(huì)從中國(guó)是一個(gè)人權(quán)狀況較差的社會(huì)就推出法輪功學(xué)員器官被活體摘取是應(yīng)該存在的，從政府減少了醫(yī)院的財(cái)政撥款，就推論出醫(yī)院會(huì)摘取用法輪功學(xué)員活體器官進(jìn)行盈利。但對(duì)蘇家屯醫(yī)院廣西民族醫(yī)院以及石炳毅的求證都證實(shí)了不僅這些推理本身不符合邏輯，而且連推論的前提都是錯(cuò)誤的，三類證據(jù)沒(méi)有一個(gè)是值得信任，經(jīng)得起推敲和考證的。
子墨：我們?cè)诨ヂ?lián)網(wǎng)上發(fā)現(xiàn)，在這份報(bào)告的調(diào)查員之一自稱是人權(quán)律師的大衛(wèi)麥塔斯是賴昌星的辯護(hù)律師，而兩個(gè)從來(lái)沒(méi)到過(guò)中國(guó)大陸的大衛(wèi)在臺(tái)灣還曾經(jīng)受到過(guò)呂秀蓮的熱情接待，此外他們還曾經(jīng)在很多的國(guó)際會(huì)議上大力的宣傳這份報(bào)告，要求各國(guó)政府和運(yùn)動(dòng)員抵制2008年的北京奧運(yùn)會(huì)，然而令人遺憾的是，我們的實(shí)地走訪并沒(méi)有發(fā)現(xiàn)任何的事實(shí)是和這份報(bào)告當(dāng)中所敘述的內(nèi)容相符合的。那么一位是高薪的律師，另外一位是加拿大曾經(jīng)的政府官員，他們?yōu)槭裁磿?huì)做出這樣一份錯(cuò)誤百出的調(diào)查報(bào)告，他們又抱有怎樣目的呢？
Phoenix TV: Davids' report reexamined
Narrator: A hospital was discredited as a concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioners.
Zhang Xu (spokeman of Sujiatun hospital, which is formally called Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): It says that our hospital is the concentration camp, housing thousands of Falun Gong practitioners from whom the living body organs have been harvested.
Narrator: A couple of doctors were slanderously accused of removing living organs.
Yu Sanjiang (cerebral surgeon of Sujiatun hospital): I am but an ordinary physician. I'm wondering why they fabricated the stories on me.
Narrator: How did the ridiculous rumor come into being?
Zimo (anchor of phoenix TV): On June 6, 2006, two Canadians, David Kilgour and David Mattas published an independent survey in which the Communist China was indicted to remove alive the organs of Falun Gong practitioners. And its revised version on January 31, 2007 even shocked the whole world that organs of a large number of Falun Gong practitioners were illegally removed alive for transplant surgeries. What is the truth on earth?
David Mattas: We're going to work out the second version. Rather than 18 items of disproof, 25 or 26, even 27 methods are to be used for proof and disproof.
Narrator: David Mattas, a Canadian human rights lawyer. David Kilgour, a former Canada Congressional prosecutor. Two-month investigations gave birth to the so-called report of China harvesting organs alive in July 2006. On publication of its revised version in Jan. 2007, they claimed to have enough evidences that the Chinese government illegally detained large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners and removed their organs alive for transplantation, the hospital had made huge profits. The report was translated into 9 languages. Two Davids advertise the report loudly in 15 Asian, European and North American countries and on many international occasions, they smear at China`s organ transplantation system and have made a very bad impact on China.
Mao Qun'an (spokesman of the Ministry of Health of the State): We are very angry. The impact of this report, especially on the public abroad, is very bad and it's beyond the field of organ transplantation technology. It's definitely a premeditated attack towards our country and our government.
Narrator: According to Davids' report, Miss Anne (anonym) said that her husband, a surgeon, had cut the cornea of almost 2,000 dopey Falun Gong practitioners within two years. And other organs of those cornea donators were removed by other physicians, and their bodies were finally burnt. The place they accused is Sujiatun hospital, in the city of Shenyang, Liaoning Province,China.
Narrator: Sujiatun district is located in the south suburb of Shenyang, Liaoning Province, about 20 minutes' drive from the city. There are four hospitals in Sujiatun district where hospitals are comparatively centralized. Certain oversea media have indicted that hospital for several times by mentioning it vaguely as Sujiatun hospital. Related Falun Gong websites show the picture of the accused hospital as Liaoning Thrumbus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine. It is surprised that the hospital condemned of removing living organ of Falun Gong practitioners is actually a special hospital curing cerebral thrombosis. Vice president of the hospital, Zhang Yuqin, happened to work in the clinic when we arrived.
Zimo: The overseas report continuously censures that the physicians of your hospital removing living organs from Falun Gong practitioners. How big is your surgical department?
Zhang Yuqin (Vice president of Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrtated Chinese & Western Medicine): The surgical department is simply a small ward and we have a treatment room in addition. We can only supply simple treatment in the treatment room, such as handling simple wound and stopping bleeding.
Zimo: How many surgeons are there in all?
Zhang Yuqin: Just a little more than ten.
Zimo: You told us that your hospital never did the things mentioned in the report. But is your hospital capable of removing living organs?
Zhang Yuqin: We do not have the ability to remove organs and we have no such equipments either.
Narrator: There are merely 300 beds for patients in this Sujiatun hospital and the maximum capability of the hospital is 600 patients.
Zhang Xu, the spokesman of Sujiatun hospital, considers that the so-called Sujiatun concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioner is a sheer nonsense.
Zhang Xu (spokesman of Sujiatun hospital): Every single sentence is fabricated. Our hospital was founded in 1988 and before that the place was a vegetable garden, so there are many residents living around it. We have been here since the hospital was founded. It situates right in the residential area with many traffic roads nearby, and takes in large amount of domestic and foreign patients everyday. If what the report says is true, then the two Canadians would have no chance to be the first to report the event, since the whole nation at least the staff of our hospital like us would know it first. Therefore, the so-called event is a sheer nonsense.
Narrator: This is the inpatient department of the Sujiatun hospital. Before two Davids' report, the website of Falun Gong Minghui.org pointed out that this hospital hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners and 2,000 of them were set on fire after being removed living organs. The website even published the cinerator, which was actually the boiler room of the hospital.
Zimo: How long have you been working here?
Worker (in the boiler room): I came to work in the boiler room since 1991, so 16 years in all.
Zimo: What's your daily work?
Worker: This is a two-ton boiler. We mainly manufacture pharmaceutical preparation of Chinese and western medicine, supply hot water for the laundry and steam for the kitchen and dining-room, and so on.
Zimo: Around the year 2003, did you sense anything abnormal in this boiler room?
Worker: Nothing abnormal.
Zimo: For exemple,was there any other thing being burnt?
Worker: Definitely no.
Narrator: This is merely an ordinary boiler room. There are glass windows both in front and back of the room and the residential area is about only ten meters away. So a resident could see the activity clearly through the glass windows of the boiler room just from his house. Besides, the boiler room has only two doors connecting the outside.
Zhang Xu: I don't know whether you have noticed or not the picture on Minghui.org which was actually shot from the nearby residential area. The residential building is right above the boiler room, so the residents could see anything in the room when they dry their clothes in the sun. Under such a circumstance, I don't know how to keep any secret.
Narrator: According to common sense, if Sujiatun hospital indeed hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, then how to solve the problem of their daily lives?
Zimo: So we want to know during that period, did you receive any assignment to supply logistical support to such a large number of people?
Qi Qide (Section chief of adminstration of Sujiatun hospital) : I have been working here ever since the hospital was founded. The regular supply of this hospital is to provide water, electricity, heating, oxygen, laundry and meal, and nothing else.
Zimo: Suppose there are 6,000 people staying in your hospital, what kind of preparation work do you have to support the logistics? How much money and how many people are needed to serve them?
Qi Qide: Provided that there are 6,000 people, first of all we have to ensure the accommodation. But we do not have enough rooms for so many people to stay in our hospital. Besides, we need at least 5,000 to 6,000 people to serve them. We only have 600 staff in our hospital, then where can we get so many workers serving them?
Narrator: After the scandal of Sujiatun hospital hiding Falun Gong practitioner appearing in Epoch Times, the working personnel of American Consulate-General in Shenyang pretending to be a patient came to Sujiatun hospital to consult the organ removing operation, and failed to dig out any problem.
On March 21, 2006, the Consulate sent Mr. David Kombluth, the consul of Shenyang, to investigate Sujiatun hospital again. The five-people group examined carefully the sickroom, office building, medical equipment and even the utility room storing sundries, yet failed to find anything abnormal.
Zimo: How long did the American consul's investigation last?
Zhang Xu: He came here twice. The first time he came was when Falun Gong was hyping up the news, if I am correct it`s probablly on 18 March. On 22 March, Mr. David Kombluth, the US consul, in the name of visitation, came to our hospital . I received him and showed him around, and it took about one hour. The second time he came was after our government had held the news conference. The American Consulate-General tried to seek help from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to investigate in our hospital. This investigation lasted five hours and it was a comprehensive interview. We introduced in detail the equipment in each part of our hospital and their functions, and we also explained particularly the medical treatment projects, including the operation and some original records.
Zimo: Did he find any abnormity in the process of investigation?
Zhang Xu: No.
Narrator: On April 12, 2006, the AP released news. The spokeswoman of the American Embassy in China announced that according to the current information they had collected, Sujiatun hospital was simply a hospital functionally.
Narrator: On March 31, 2006, a person whose name was signed in Epoch Times as a retired military surgeon of Shenyang military Rigion, said that Sujiatun hospital once detained more than 10,000 people in early 2005. He also said that in 2006 the daily detained people are 600 to 750 and many of them had been transferred to other concentration camps. He even described in detail that they were transferred by special trains and lorries, and it needed only one day to transfer 5,000 people. Sujiatun hospital is very close to a crossroad which leads to Shenyang-Haerbin expressway, so there are many vehicles coming and going. It is also next to Xuesong Road and Guihua Street and it's surrounded by bank, community school and stadium, there is no large empty space in the surroundings. Therefore, it is impossible to transfer so many people in such a busy area without being noticed. We are going to interview the nearby residents to see what happened.
Zimo: We just want to know did you see large number of strangers coming and going out of the hospital.
Residents: No.
Zimo: Never?
Residents: No, not at all. This hospital is very regular.
Zimo: Did you live around here in 2002 to 2003?
Residents: Yes. We have been here for 7 to 8 years.
Zimo: Did you see thousands of people coming and going out of the hospital?
Residents: Absolutely no.
A patient's relative: My parents-in-law had been in hospital since last year. We are scared by the scandal. I think it's impossible. It's a special hospital for treating cerebral thrombosis, then how can there exist organ business? Some even say there is a basement. It's ridiculous. Sheer nonsense.
Zimo: But the report indicated that all the patients had been transferred and the previous rooms disappeared just in one night ever since the news was revealed.
Zhang Xu: The report said that 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, along with the incinerator and other equipment were displaced just in one night. It's unbeleivable. Where could such a large number of people go? What's more important is what I told you just now, this is a busy residential area and transferring so many people, it could not be achieved without being noticed. That's why I'm sure that it's nothing but a rumor. Any sane person who has common sense and is capable of thinking normally would know that it's lying as long as he comes to visit the hospital just for once.
Narrator: On June 1, 2007, Epoch Times spreaded rumor again. It said that Mr. King who was applying for Korea nationality disclosed that a surgeon named Yu Haishan of Sujiatun hospital was specialized in organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. We came to the hospital and found the only doctor whose surname was Yu (Yu Sanjiang). Doctor Yu thought that the rumor was related with a consultation call he had answered when he was on duty in hospital in May 2007.
Zimo: On June 1 this year, some oversea websites released the news about Sujiatun hospital. They censured that a retired surgeon whose surname was Yu was hired to Sujiatun hospital and performed living organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. I guess the Doctor Yu might mean you?
Yu Sanjiang (Surgeon of Liaoning Trombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): I answered a phone call in mid May(The caller is a woman). She said first that she was looking for Doctor Yu Haishan, a good surgeon retiring from Shenyang. I told her that she got the wrong person and I was Yu Sanjiang, not Yu Haishan, I had retired from General Hospital of Liaoning Province. She then said that she heard I could perform kidney transplanting operation. I denied and told her that was not my major.
Narrator: Yu Sanjiang is a surgeon of tumor, not capable of performing kidney transplanting operation, but the woman on the phone kept on the issue of kidney transplantation.
Zimo: Did you feel strange when you answered the phone?
Yu Sanjiang: Yes, I felt very strange. It was a woman who had southern accent, probably around 40 to 50 years old. She talked as if she was trying to sound out something.
Zimo: What did she say after you told her that you could not perform a kidney transplanting operation?
Yu Sanjiang: She kept on talking and said that she heard I could do it, and repeated several times how to cure uremia and mentioned kidney transplant. I hung up the phone and then stopped explaining anything.
Zimo: You have never performed any organ transplanting operation?
Yu Sanjiang: No, never. No doctors specialized in tumor could perform organ transplanting operation, especially for the doctors specialized in alimentary canal. As far as I know, there is no hospital is capable of performing kidney transplanting operation in the entire Sujiatun area.
Narrator: Since Doctor Yu cannot perform kidney transplanting operation, then who on earth was Mr. King declaring himself to be Doctor Yu's friend in Epoch Times website?
Zimo: Do you have a friend whose surname is King and is Korean nationality?
Yu Sanjiang: No, I haven't.
Zimo: Since the oversea report said that a man of Korean nationality, with his surname King, revealed in South Korea that he was your friend, and he suggested that you were specialized in organ transplanting operation in Sujiatun hospital.
Yu Sanjiang: No, I am not. I have been back to my hometown for more than five years and I contact more people of Han nationality for I myself am a Han nationality man.
Narrator: The only testimony of witness in the entire report was such a so-called lady Anne who declared herself the wife of a surgeon in Sujiatun hospital. Then who was lady Anne on earth?
Zimo: Along with the evidence of location of the accused hospital, the report provided a testimony of witness who is Lady Anne. She said that her ex-husband was a surgeon of Sujiatun hospital and he told her that he had removed cornea of 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners in two years, bring about great suffering to her family.
Zhang Xu: I want to say something about the so-called testimony of witness, Anne. First of all, there is no such a person in our hospital at all. Second, what she said was full of contradictions. She said that her husband was a brain surgeon, then how could he perform cornea removal operation? If you know a little about medicine you would know it's absolutely impossible. What's more, she said she was a staff member of this hospital, but it's not true.
Zimo: What Anne said is totally unreliable?
Zhang Xu: I can tell you honestly and I am responsible for what I am saying that not even a tiny word of what Anne said is true.
Narrator: After the rumors appearing in Minghui.org and Epoch Times websites, which said that Sujiatun hospital had detained secretly Falun Gong practitioners, removing their living organ and burning their corpses to eliminate the vestiges, on 31 March, 2006, the journalists of four Media including Japanese NHK and Hongkong`s "Public Daily" went to Sujiatun hospital for on-the-spot investigation and interview. On 12 April, the spokesman of Sujiatun hospital gave a news conference in Beijing and 12 Media, including Washington Post and AFP and so on, attended the conference.
Zhang Xu: Since we are not guilty of anything, we explain everything in detail in the interview and show them around in our hospital.
Zimo: Do you think there were any conscientious reports from oversea media?
Zhang Xu: I should say that all the 13 Media which attended the last news conference, including Reuters and Washington Post, have made the news reports objectively and veritably. That's also the reason why Falun Gong accused our hospital less and less since the last-year`s news conference, as whenever the truth came out, there was no room for deceit to exist.
Mao Qunan: Mentioning the report, the foreign journalists themselves didn't believe what it said. They paid more attention on the development of organ transplantation techniques in China and considered the report unreliable. Why? Because Sujiatun event led them to believe that it was Falun Gong organization that took advantage of medical development and fabricated such a story just for certain political motive.
Narrator: A large amount of the evidence in two Davids' report was actually quoted from telephone interviews pretended by the people they hired and it was said that hundreds of hospitals in China were interviewed. The report especially mentioned in detail the interview of Doctor Lu in Guangxi Nationality Hospital. It said that the doctor had admitted he once went to a prison to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners around 30 years-old to provide organs. So we came to Guangxi.
We came to Guangxi Nationality Hospital with the report. The hospital locates in a busy area of Nanning (the pronvicial capital) and it is a general hospital of Level Ⅲ Grade A, which is not capable of performing organ transplanting or removal operation. We found Doctor Lu in the consulting room of Urological Department. He is a physician-in-charge.
Lu Guoping (Doctor from Urological Department of Guangxi Nationality Hospital): In May 2006 when I was on duty in the hospital, I got a phone call from a woman who had northern accent and was about 50 years old. She said that one of her relatives suffered from uremia and it was very urgent. She wanted to receive kidney transplanting operation as soon as possible and asked if our hospital could do it. I clearly answered her question that we were not able to do the operation and suggested her going to Guangzhou organ transplanting center.
Narrator: Lu Guoping came to work in Guangxi Nationality Hospital in 1999. He was promoted to a physician in charge in 2004 and went to a superior hospital in Guangzhou to attend in a advanced studies in 2005.
Lu Guoping: She kept on asking me if the hospital used the Falun Gong practitioners' organs. I told her I didn't perform such kind of operation and had no idea of where the organ came from. She then asked if the organ came from some prison or something like that. I told her positively that it was impossible.
Narrator: Two Davids`report even described vividly that doctor Lu once suggested the woman to fetch organ from Guangzhou and told her it was easier to get organ there. He even said that he used to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners' organs in prison. Hearing this, Lu Guoping was astonished at these telephone record.
Lu Guoping: The content of the record was not what I said at that time, and a lot of things had been altered. There were two obvious problems. First, the report said that when I was asked if I previously fetched the organs of Falun Gong practitioners from prisons or detention houses, this report said my answer was from prison. But it was not my answer at all. I actually told her that neither our hospital nor I could transplant organs, so there was no need for us to fetch organ at all. Second, the report said that when the woman asked me if I had to pick up organs in prison by myself, I gave a positive answer. But the fact was no such a question had been mentioned. It was all faked.
Narrator: The report claimed that they had interviewed hundreds of hospitals on telephone, including investigator Mr.M's call to more than 80 hospitals and investigator Mr.N's call to almost 40 hospitals. The face-to-face interview with the persons concerned in both Sujiatun and Guangxi proved that such telephone records were by no means reliable.
Narrator: Based on a lot of so-called false telephone interviews, Davids' report drew a ridiculous conclusion. that conclusion was related to the abrupt number increase of organ transplanting operation in China in 1999 with the Falun Gong event in the same year, which inferred the increase organ suppliers were those Falun Gong practitioners. The conclusion was logically inaccurate, and the numbers which were the basics of the conclusion were also counterfeiting, that came from Professor Shi Bingyi's words.
309 Hospital, also known as the Second Subsidiary Hospital of PLA General Hospital, possesses the organ transplanting center of PLA. Shi Bingyi is the director of the center, who is also the executive deputy director of Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association. He is an authoritative expert in the organ transplantation field in China.
Zimo: Recently we read a report worked out by two independent Canadian investigators and it quoted your words. It said that 90000 organ transplanting operations had been done in China till 2005. During the years from 2000 to 2005, a period that they called after the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, 60000 had been done, which meant that there was a substantial increase in the number of operation cases. We are wondering if you said such words under any circumstances?
Shi Bingyi (Executive deputy director of Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association ): I didn't say that. You know why? Since I have never had such statistic data in my mind. I haven't done any particular survey, I haven`t these data concerning the number of operation cases in certain period of time, so it was impossible for me to say that.
Zimo: Though you haven't said the specific number of operation cases, but do you think these numbers from the report could be true?
Shi Bingyi: I don't think it`s true. I read from the report that they investigated in the name of patients' relatives, just calling hospitals and asking the person who answered the phone.
Zimo: After you read the report of independent investigation, have you ever clarified the statistic data quoted from you?
Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. I am an armyman, so I have to protest through legal channel, with the help of the Medical Department of General Logistics Department PLA, I wrote a letter to the Ministry of State of Public Health to clarify that I have never said that words.
Zimo: Have you ever clarified the facts to any oversea media?
Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. When I was interviewed by BBC on the phone I told them that I didn't say that.
Narrator: Shi Bingyi suggested that the numbers of organ transplantation operation had grown since the end of last century, but it had nothing to do with Falun Gong event.
Zimo: How should we understand that the numbers of organ transplantation operation in China grows so substantially?
Shi Bingyi: The increase is directly related to the fact that the medical science is developing and we now have more competent doctors, instead of having more organ supplier. In recent years, coming back from Pittsburgh and Britain, the Chinese visiting scholars set about organ transplantation work. So the organ transplantation techniques have developed a lot both in clinic application and scientific research, and it`s same for other countries in that period. Internationally speaking, up to now, it has been only half a century since the first case of operation of organ transplant in the world.
Zimo: How to solve the organ supplier problem if the amount of operation increases substantially?
Shi Bingyi: The lack of organ supplier cannot be settled. It will exist forever, not only in our country but also in other countries.
Zimo: The report also mentioned some other numbers. For example, it was said that some Chinese hospitals advertised in their official websites that the patients needed only two weeks for the organ supplier, whereas in other countries they normally need one year. How would you explain the difference?
Shi Bingyi: I can tell you that some patients of our hospital have been waiting for 3 to 4 years. The number of patients who have been waiting for more than 1 year is definitely more than 200.
Narrator: After Sujiatun hospital was indicted as Falun Gong concentration camp, organizations of different levels, such as the Ministry of Public Security and the Ministry of Public Health, separately carried out sudden checks to the hospitals, failing to discover anything abnormal and holding news conference to clarify the truth. Later, when the revised edition of Davids' report came out, the Ministry of Public Health investigated all the clues both secretly and openly again.
Zimo: Do we have any evidence to prove that such thing as transplanting living organ of Falun Gong practitioners had never happened in China?
Mao Qun'an: It reminds me of another rumor spreading abroad by Falun Gong organization when we prevented bird`s flu. We actually discovered a case of people infecting bird`s flu in Liaoning province, but they distorted it to scores of people dying of bird`s flu, even listing the specific name of each patient. Then we assisted the police to investigate, only finding out that the listed people either not existing at all or living healthily. Reading the report, we are thinking about if Falun Gong organization could offer a detailed name list as I mentioned above, we would immediately disclose their lie and bring the real facts to light. However, instead of giving any specific fact, the report only described such a large scale of living organ transplant cases. So we have no chance to disprove it directly. For example, if the report said something about certain person, we could find the person so that the person would speak out the truth to the public. But it's a pity that we failed to find out any such clue.
Zimo: In the process of regulating and administrating the organ transplantation, in your opinion, what improvements are urgently needed besides the medical technique itself in China?
Mao Qun'an: Organ transplantation is a new medical technique and it attracts much attention both in China and abroad. I have been interviewed many times on this topic. Some oversea Media and journalists kindly gave us opinions and suggestions on how to regulate the organ transplantation in our country. We think they were very objective. During the process of developing this technique, a lot of medical institutions and staff have participated in it. Since the technique is new and everybody is longing for contributing to its development, we need to regulate it. The two factors are not conflicted at all. But Falun Gong organization took advantage of this chance to fabricate such a ridiculous story. I believe when the oversea public get to know about the development of our society and medical science, the lie would collapse of itself.
Subtitle: On July 1, 2006, The Interim Regulations on Clinical Application Administration of Body Organ Transplant came into effect. On May 1, 2007, The Regulations on Body Organ Transplant came into effect.
Narrator: Reading the whole report we found that Davids' evidence could be reduced to three categories: first, the words of so-called testimony of witnesses, such as Anne and Shi Bingyi and the distorted telephone records; second, materials download from the Internet; third, illogical inferences containing certain vague words, such as "might", "should", "if" and so on. The example of the third category was that the two investigators inferred the living organ removal from Falun Gong practitioner should exit because human rights condition was not good in China, and they deduced that the hospitals were making profit by removing living organ from Falun Gong practitioners as the government reduced the fiscal appropriation for hospitals. But the on-the-spot investigations of Sujiatun hospital and Guangxi Nationaltiy Hospital, as well as the talk with Shi Bingyi all confirmed that not only the inference was illogical but also the premise of the inference was false. Therefore, no evidence of three categories was reliable or could bear close inspection.
Zimo: We have discovered from Internet that one of the investigators of the report, David Mattas who calls himself a human right lawyer, is Lai Changqing's counsel. The two Davids who have never been to mainland China were warmly welcome by Lv Xiulian in Taiwan. In addition, they exert their full strength to propagate the report in many international conferences and call for governments and athletes to resist 2008 Beijing Olympic Games. However, it's a pity that our on-the-spot investigation has found out that no fact is in accord with what the report said. Then why do the two Canadian Davids, one of them a well-paid lawyer and the other once a government officer, work out such a report full of mistakes? What is their motive?
(Phoenix TV, August 16, 2007)